Sunday, 24 November 2019

Progressives, trust your gut: Elizabeth Warren is not one of us

quote [ Warren loves to antagonize the super-rich – but her campaign seems suspiciously designed to stave off revolution ]

Snowfox, this is why we dislike Warren.
[SFW] [politics] [+4 Underrated]
[by rylex@8:55pmGMT]

Comments

Ebichuman said @ 11:27pm GMT on 24th Nov [Score:5 Underrated]
I don't really get the thesis. She says progressive things, things more progressive than most of the candidates, but because the article's author doesn't believe her and cited some other people who don't believe her, we should assume she's a Trojan horse? The examples he cites just appear to be other opinion pieces and conjectural quotes from others, not evidence.

People who are pragmatic and realistic ultimately may have to compromise in order to achieve good despite that it is not perfect. I just figured that is true for any candidate, so the ones that go further in setting the goal posts are going to probably achieve more.

I mean, if you're looking for a Trojan Horse, we already got Tulsi Gabbard.
damnit said[1] @ 1:21am GMT on 25th Nov [Score:1 Informative]
Menchi said @ 12:44am GMT on 25th Nov
She says progressive things.
Her deeds, on the other hand...
eggboy said @ 11:05am GMT on 26th Nov
There's always a few tankies and purists ready to throw their friends and allies under the bus for the slightest infraction against ideological purity, until their movements are stymied by lack of diverse ideas, or new ideas at all. And of course the putinbots will amplify them to provoke infighting and pointless arguing that prevents any actual praxis getting done, and make those movements seem more extreme and stupid to moderates and centrists.
steele said[1] @ 2:14pm GMT on 26th Nov
Most recently, they were called the Tea Party and they pretty much took over the US government.

edit: I wonder how many people here are aware that if Bernie Sanders hadn't run for the nominee in 2016 and used that momentum to create Our Revolution (aka "dividing the party") that we would likely be in the middle of Koch-backed constitutional convention right now. That's where the status quo was taking us. That's where the Democratic Party's strategy of "as long as we have the presidency" was going to lead.
hellboy said @ 12:47am GMT on 25th Nov [Score:2 Insightful]
Sorry, but this is a stupid fucking argument. Are there meaningful policy differences between Bernie and Warren? Of course. His environmental plan is more aggressive than hers, his foreign policy is likely to be somewhat less aggressive than hers, and so on. But this idea that there's this huge gap between Bernie and Warren, who is way over next to Biden and Buttigieg and Bloomberg is flat out insane. She's not a stealth Republican. Frankly a lot of this smells like Sanders supporters who are afraid that she might beat him and are flailing to come up with some way to take her down, when the real enemies are elsewhere.

What are you going to do if Bernie has another heart attack, and instead of bouncing back to shoot hoops like a bad ass, dies or has to withdraw from the race? Warren had better be your second choice because there is no real third choice. She and Sanders aren't exactly in alignment but they are closer to each other than they are to any other candidates in the race. AOC chose to support Bernie (and good for her) but she was strongly considering Warren too. And she's no dummy.

By all means advocate for Bernie and his proposals. But don't do it by tearing down the candidate that's the closest to him in this field. Warren is not the lesser of two evils, but she may be the lesser of two goods. She's not Clinton (who would've been a lot like Biden or Bloomberg would be); even if she's not a socialist dream come true she's still a big step in the right direction and not another defender of the status quo (like Buttigieg and Harris). Likewise, Warren supporters had better be prepared to support Bernie if he ends up cleaning up in the primaries, for the exact same reasons.

And keep in mind that no President's proposals are going anywhere unless they can convince Congress to pass them. So the nitty-gritty details of all of this stuff are literally academic. Warren is not as far left as Sanders, but she may be a better advocate for getting things passed. There are legitimate reasons for supporting both candidates, and someone whose ranking has them in reverse order from you isn't an idiot or a sucker or a traitor to the cause. The establishment doesn't have to do all that much to keep the left in check, because the left is a really fucking good at cannibalism.
Dienes said @ 4:26pm GMT on 25th Nov [Score:2 Underrated]
Whenever someone uses "Go with your gut" as part of their argument they are basically admitting they don't have anything particularly convincing for your brain.
mechanical contrivance said @ 4:37pm GMT on 25th Nov
My gut says to go with my brain.
steele said[1] @ 2:25am GMT on 25th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
If you don't trust her then anything Leftist she says becomes meaningless. And she may not be some stealth republican, but whatever she is, she isn't authentic. She's practically quoting Bernie out in the field while claiming the words as her own. She claimed to be running a campaign on small donations while using big donor funding from her senate race; Not that it matters because after the primary, big donors are back on the menu.... Oh wait, no she's totally not taking from big money donors.... Or maybe not, because who knows when her stance on fundraising is as reliable as a windsock.

Bernie is the compromise. He's not even a guarantee away from the path to extinction that we're on, he's a narrow window in which we might have a little hope that my nieces and nephews don't find themselves in a fucking refugee camp when they're my age. Pretending that anyone that looks kinda leftist is on our side when they're in no way willing to address why we're hurtling far past the mealy mouthed 2°C "limits" of the Paris Agreements is self defeating. Much like Warren's bastardization of Medicare 4 All, or Obama taking Single Payer off the table, it's a compromise on our future before negotiations have even begun.

And if Bernie doesn't win, you're absolutely going to see how fucking good the left is at cannibalism. Because motherfuckers are hungry, and even on the small chance that Trump doesn't wipe the floor with Warren, nothing she's proposing is going to put a dent into why Bernie is so popular with the youth or why nazis, white supremacists, and other attack dogs of fascism are coming back into fashion.
rylex said @ 3:05am GMT on 25th Nov
she's not a stealth republican.

she's a progressive republican.
which is as bad as a conservative democrat.

this is my argument

mego said @ 2:22am GMT on 25th Nov [Score:2]
There has never been a good president, and every single president we've ever had should have spent the rest of their lives rotting away in a prison cell. Warren won't be any different, Bernie might.
Dienes said @ 4:22pm GMT on 25th Nov
I like Bernie as much as another socialist progressive but the idea that he and he alone may be infallible and perfect as president is laughable.

He's human.
mego said @ 4:41pm GMT on 25th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
You're right, it is absolutely laughable and not at all what I said.
snowfox said @ 7:41am GMT on 25th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
I only mentioned Warren specifically because Sanders supporters who hated Clinton said they'd vote for Warren as proof they would vote for a woman. Now they don't like Warren either.

But that was never the main idea. The main idea is that women have an impossible hurdle to jump that men simply do not face. If you believe this bias doesn't exist after all the evidence that people hate women, even other women, I will never convince you that the bias is real because you can't be swayed by what's in front of you or years of studies.
mechanical contrivance said @ 3:21pm GMT on 25th Nov
People believe what they want to believe.
steele said[2] @ 9:57pm GMT on 24th Nov
Christopher Jackson on Twitter: "This is really really bad. Warren's foreign policy is whatever the military industrial complex and far right democrats tell her it is. If you support Warren, you support our criminal, imperialist behaviors abroad. #EndEndlessWar #EndEndlessWarren (credit: @samhusseini) - My favorite bit is the part where they want to ask if her plan's reduction in the military budget includes the increased amount she approved for Trump.



What's funny (sad, not haha) is that Warren was a co-sponsor of previous Medicare For All bills, but as what seems to be the case for a lot of politicians, it's very easy to be for something when you don't think it's going to pass. Which makes her "adoption" of Bernie's language and rhetoric seem not just strategic, but malicious. Hence why she's gone from being seen by progressives as Bernie Lite to a Trojan Horse.

Luckily, the Sanders campaign has been doing a pretty good job of understanding their audience.


😂😂😂😂

Hugh E. said @ 11:50pm GMT on 24th Nov
You know who else opposes "our criminal, imperialist behaviors abroad"? Judy sayin'.
steele said @ 12:08am GMT on 25th Nov
Who's Judy Sayin? Is she related to Goku?
Hugh E. said @ 12:33am GMT on 25th Nov
She's an on-the-left-right-leaning-homekey Gabbard supporter.
steele said @ 8:17pm GMT on 25th Nov
mechanical contrivance said @ 8:30pm GMT on 25th Nov
Communist world powers never went away.
steele said @ 8:38pm GMT on 25th Nov
Not in our heart, at least.

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